On Astrology & Clarity VERY IMPORTANT

The following is in reply to an astroblog posting by one Aura Wright; her "open letter" is really a retort to comments made by me within the larger context of discussion taking place on the "Astrologer's Water Cooler" at yahoogroups.com. As I was just purusing the Net, as I sometimes do, I happened to see this blog posting (http://www.astrologychick.com/b2/, Oct 30 2005 Entry; scroll down a bit and you'll see it); never one to just let one side have their say, I thought to present here, to the readers, "the rest of the story".

I leave it to the readers to decide for themselves, the left and right of things. As Always, I prefer Clarity, to Agreement.

Here is the unedited, uncut version, of what REALLY happened...

As always, comments, invited.

Reply To Gayle Andrea, Mu On Astrology & Morality - Aura

10:17 PM 11/8/05 Tue

Hi Aura, Ladies,

Read your comments and gave them a bit of thought; I'd like to respond to what you said, both to me and your comments addressed to Gayle. But before I do that, I'd just like to point out a few things.

This will be the second time we will attempt a dialogue; in light of that, I took the liberty of looking up your chart, and as I thought, you have Neptune prominent, rising in the Scorpio Asc. Moreover, Neptune exactly opposes Mercury, which, I don't need to tell you or anyone else, "muddies" the communicative powers of Mercury, don't you agree? I say that to say that perhaps the major problem between us, if we have any problem at all, is in the way in which we think and communicate. For me, data, information and accuracy with same is what is most important; for you, from what I've gathered here, "compassion" is important. Come, let's sit down and see what we can make of all this here...

In the interest of full disclosure and fairness (please keep in mind that I have more planets in Libra than any other Sign) here's my birthdata, in case you don't already have it:

Dec 2 1968 9.43AM EST Phila, PA; 15 Ca 25, Placidus

You'll kindly notice that I have virtually no Water at all in my chart, although I do have Neptune angular and at my Sun/Moon midpoint (that's if you use Midpoints, and I'm not sure you do); your chart, by contrast, is Water rich. That's conflict number one.

Next, note that my Asc ruling Saturn is in the 3rd House "heavy thinking" - and opposes Mars in the 9th. I pride myself on logic, debate, and focused thinking. Extraneous things are not only a distraction to me, but they also get in the way of accurate information being imparted. Again, contrast this with your very prominent - and exact - Mercury-Neptune opposition. Hmm.

Both my Moon and Venus are in Earth Signs, the latter squared by chart ruling Saturn; in your case, the Moon and Venus are in Water Signs, with the Moon in Cancer at that. Contrary to what you may think you know about my Venus-Saturn square, it's been much more of a friend than an enemy, once I got the hang of it. It keeps me focused on what;s really important, that "commonsense" wisdom that just doesn't seem to be so common these days. With all that Moon-Venus Water, along with a Water Asc and Neptune all over both your Mercury and Sun, I can see why you would open up your post to me and Gayle in the way that you did, focusing almost entirely on how you feel about HOW I say what I say, not WHAT I said; to date, you nor anyone else who have taken issue with that which I have said (and this definitely includes Gayle) has actually presented chart cases contrary to my premise. Hmm.

The Male planets in your chart seem to be a bit "muffled", if I may - the Sun is opposed Neptune, "watered down", and Mars is Rx. It would be interesting to see what kind of male clients you have, if they are more the classic Martian type or the more Clintonian "I feel your pain"/Metrosexual type. Hmm. I'm open to possibility that perhaps, we have something to learn from each other? Come, let's see...

A: To Mu - it does nothing to help you make your point when you insult theperson you are writing to. Isn't this the exact thing that you are criticizing womenfor doing?

MU: Aura, please point out to me, specifically, who I've insulted, exactly what I've said that was insulting, and what that if anything, has to do with the issues at hand? Who's character have I impunged? Please explain?

A: Kindness goes very far in the lives of us mere humans. I feel the need torepeat the oft quoted statement that 'nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.'

MU: Yea, I'm familiar with the quote. There are lots of incompetent, yet nice people in the world. I'll take the jerk who's excellent in his craft any day of the week. More on this point below...

A: Just because a person's individual choices are their own, doesn't mean we can'thave some compassion for the challenges they face - I don't mean indulgence or co-dependency, I mean compassion - that great salve to humanity that is and hasbeen the balm for the masses given by all the great masters who have walked thisearth - Mohommed, Jesus, Buddah - you name it. Perhaps your intellect and superiorperspective on the world has taken you above the need to pay attention to suchthings as compassion, caring and humanism - but I doubt it.

MU: Again, here's where our charts are talk at each other, and not to each other - compassion and feelings may be your focus, but it's not mine, and by that I mean, that to me it's beside the point to feel one way or another about a given thing; for me, the issue is whether the analysis is accurate or not. So, when I talk about Venus-Pluto aspects and women, the issue is whether what I said accurate or not, not whether you or anyone else is offended about that or not. Thus far, what I said about the matter has held a considerable amount of water (keep reading on) and to date, again, for the umpteenth time, neither you nor anyone else hasn't presented a single chart to refute that which I said. You mention some things about men below that I saw, and had no problem personally with at all, because I know you weren't talking about me - you couldn't be talking about me, because you don't know me - so I have no need or reason to get all undone about the issue. More and that below.

A: Besides, I cannot recall any great leader or master who ever taught that intellectual superiority and bashing the heads in of those who don't meet your standards is the path to enlightenment for you or your target. Anyway, he who sheds no light of compassion on others rarely earns it from them either. But, then, maybe this is what you are allergic to.

MU: Then you obviously haven't studied at a real ashram or for that matter a dojo; I have (the latter; Aikido) and I can tell you, I know what it is to study under a taskmaster, and it made me the better for it. I have a drill sargent's mentality so I tend to approach life as if it were one big Paris Island, and I am the first one to admit that I'm not for everybody. Go figure. In any event, I don't recall asking for compassion, feelings, or forgiveness from you or anyone else.

What I'm allergic to is so much of the BS that passes itself off for right thinking in Astrology today, and that's what I'm providing a counterbalance for.

A: A closed heart is a closed heart is a cold place to live. My experience shows me thatpeople who crystallize their emotions into the cold, hard ice crystals of pureintellect are themselves frozen and unable to feel that which lies beneath the surface of their existence - some deep wound or pain must still be healed. But first it must bemelted. Usually those who cannot feel their own wounds are the ones most likelyto perperate the same crimes they have experiences upon others. Of course I cansee the comfort that intellectual bullying can give to such a person - when activelyengaged in bludgoning the head of someone else, you are not required to lookinward.

MU: This is the second time you've attempted to analyze me - astrologically or otherwise - with very, very limited information or perspective. Instead of actually dealing with the merits or the lack therof of my arguments - that's what logicians do, don't you know - you seem to fixate on me, my childhood, my this and my that. That's very, very soft, assumptive reasoning Aura, and you must learn - or should I say, unlearn - such things.

Far from having a cold heart Aura, I'm one of the most warmest people you could know, it's just I know how to prioritize. This forum is not the place for me to get all mushy like I would in private with my woman, you know what I mean? A time and place for everything, and everything in its place.
Your experience - or the distinct lack thereof - shows me that you have at best a very limited exposure to folks - let me be much more specific - Black folks like me. In fact, I'm certain that while I know I could do your chart, I have serious doubts as to whether you could do mine, in a way that actually speaks to my sensibilities, honors my experiences, and brings those funny little symbols we all use into the proper context of my life. It's this lack of experience with folks that makes being accurate with the astrology all that much more harder, and yea that might be offensive to you, but if you rose above that, you could find the gift that could bring you as well. No pain, no gain.

And again, this notion of my being an intellectual bully, of not looking inward and the rest of it, just sounds like a series of highbrow copouts for not doing the rigourous work of thinking and hard questioning of what we believe, why we believe it and whether any of it actually works in predictable ways. Simply put Aura, I'm NOT the astrologer archetype you and so many others here are used to, and you need to get used to that different vibe, because things have changed in a big way. I'm simply not buying a lot of the BS that's been proferred in astrology these days - I need to see evidence, data, and accuracy, and there's no amount of Three Card Monty BS excuses for not following through on any of this - you either can produce the goods, or you can't. The Old Jedi Mindtrick, new agey rap doesn't work on me, nor does the PC crappola old party line.

As for bashing heads in, hey, some people's heads are softer than others...is that my fault? LOL
A: Gayle: You're right that there are particular challenges faced by women thatmen rarely understand. If anything, many of them are envious that someone shouldwant us for sex purely and be willing to offer money for it. Few things are morerepulsive than a man who wishes he could be a whore!

MU: This is the second time that you have mentioned such a thing about at least some men; I know of no such men, and I'm pretty certain that I know at least as many men as you do. On what do you base this point of view? What objective evidence can you point me to that confirms this? Or this purely subjective and emotive? Please explain?

A: I personally do not buy the argument that because more aspects operate sexuallyon men that they are then excused from any form of self-control or self-mastery.Being a predator is inexcusable under any circumstance.

MU: I don't know where you, Gayle or anyone else got this notion from; I certainly did not say this. And I agree with you, there is no excuse for criminal behavior. None. That being said, the Magis are right when they say that there are more Sexual Aspects at work on men than women, which explains a lot of things on that score. Now, I know that's something that you can't swallow, but it's true. Trust it. Accept it. It's true. Afterall, with your Venus=Mars/Pluto and Venus ExDek you'd think this would be oldhat for you, but go figure.

In any event, what women have to get through their heads is that men have a different response to sexual stimuli than they do, by and large. This is why that old, tired "I should be able to walk down the street naked" argument is so old and tired - because it sounds great in theory but falls apart in actual fact in the real world. Say what you will, but for folks that are fully realized adults, they know how the real world works, and if ever a woman did that, she would be at the very least ogled, if not groped or worse. That's just the way it is. Men have different sexual responses than women do, and it's downright ridiculous for a woman to expect a man to respond in the same way she would. What needs to happen is a return to a healthy respect for the ways in which both sexes respond to such stimuli. Of course, this alone will probably offend you and/or others, but get over it, you'll live.

A: This is why I make great pains to teach my female clients - especially my younger ones - which male aspects to bevery, very careful around. Namely Saturn- Mars challenges, but especially anysquares to Juno from Venus, Mars, Saturn, Pluto, Uranus or Neptune. My own (veryextensive) experiences with rapists (several of whom have been imprisoned) have always implicated Juno squares in the man's chart. The Juno square seems to equal a desire that some men are unwilling to control. Why society says it is the woman's job to control the desires of the male sex - who are physically stronger - is completely beyond me. And again it lacks that one, very profound word - compassion.

MU: Now, note above that you make mention of a particular planetary combo that is supposed to be involved in the charts of spousal abusers, Mars-Saturn. Now, I have a very prominent and hard Mars-Saturn aspect in my chart. Am I in any way offended by what you said? Of course not! For one, you don't know me, and for two, I've never done the things you speak about above. Now, why is it that you and other ladies can't or won't seem to have the same degree of detachment and objectivity when I bring up such things like the Venus-Pluto aspects and women's charts, hmm?

Anyway, your laundry list above seems to cover the planetary gamut, including Juno. Hmm. Too many pipes only serve to stopup the drain. In my experience, I've found that both abusers and their victims tend to have Mars-Pluto combos very prominent in some way. Take OJ Simpson, for example - whether he actually killed his ex or not will forever be debated, but what is documented is that he did beat her up. Look at his chart, with Mars in the 10th and wide sextile Pluto in the 12th. Hmm. I'd be very interested if you tested out what I just said on the charts of the abusers you have in your database, and holla back with the results.

As far as men and controlling themselves go, correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, even today, don't men make and pass and enforce most if not all the laws that govern society? I think we men do a fairly good job of keeping our more base desires in check. And I think you could find "compassion" in an ice cream cone.

A: I don't think that we can compare suffering between people in any differingsituations. If women suffer under the Taliban then it needs to be stopped(covertly, and without bankrupting the nation) - but that does not make it ok for women to suffer in the Western world. Our so called civilized western society is equallybarbaric as the Taliban - we just cover it up better. Every year thousands of childrenand young women are brought into the US for the sex trade. Please tell me thatnobody would consider this more civilized than the activities of the Taliban. Also,please tell me why we don't report on it? And while you're at it, tell me why suchbarbarism is allowed in a modern Western 'civilized' society? Do we forgive such thingssimply because there are more male sexual aspects? I don't think so.

MU: I was just gonna give you a high five when you again went off the deep end. The point I was making was that, for all the problems women in our society may face, they are in no way comparable to that which is faced in the Third World. Period, end of issue. I mean, really Aura, would you like to relocate to Kabul? Mogadishu? The beautiful environs of Baghdad? I mean, let's get serious here. Are things perfect here? No. But they are far and away better than those places. Really, I think the ladies doth protest too much...

A: GQ Magazine(August 2005) has an article in which it estimates that around 24% of the gross national product of Thialand comes directly from the sex-trade (including children). Thearticle goes on to estimate that if the sex-trade was taken away from Thailand,their entire economy would be likely to collapse. I seriously doubt that this is dueto the evil gold-digging nature of all those women and children prostitutes. What isthe driving force behind such and economy? Lust and a lot of history. This is howThai woman have been in power for centuries. It is a cultural thing - and thoughthey may be paid very little, they are paid and they survive.

MU: I just reached over to my trusty copy of The Book of World Horoscopes; in it, Campion gives two charts for the state/kingdom of Thailand. The first chart is that of the Chakri Dynasty, Apr 6 1782, in Bangkok, 12Noon LMT (Placidus 18 Can 52). Please note that this chart has the Moon, the chart ruler, in the national 7th and conjunct Pluto, ruler of the national 5th; Mars=Venus/Pluto. The modern kingdom of Thailand, founded Jun 24 1932, again at Noon SST, in Bangkok (Placidus 27 Vir 41). Please note, Aura, Venus is in declinational aspect to Pluto; Mercury=Venus/Pluto (important here due to Mercury's rulership of the Asc), Venus' rulership of the national 2nd House (economy) and so much more. Clearly, the Venus-Pluto symbolisms come shining through, don't they? And keep in mind, this is with charts you chose, by way of you mentioning them to make a broader point - right?

So, you were saying how Venus-Pluto aspects were irrelevant...

A: A shallow man really deserves such a shallowwoman anyway - they are peas on a pod. Nobody needs Astrology to identify suchthings - they are obvious! Whatever - who really cares anyway? There are moremeaningful places to put our energy.

MU: Yea, like divining the astrological underpinnings of folks with gaps between their teeth, right Aura? C'mon, gimme a break, no BS, no spin, OK? This topic isn't your thing, fine. But then don't try to tinkle in my face and tell me it's raining outside. Remember, you're not that good at Three Card Monty.

A: I even think that someone like cardinalMahoney - who protected all those pedophile priests - needs capital punishment, as dohis priests. Of course due process must have it's day - if it can be proven thatMahoney knew about these molestations and allowed them to continue - for years andagainst HUNDREDS of children - then he should be sumerily executed. This is a radicalposition, I know - but how can we as a civilized society stand by and allow suchevil to flourish in a 'house of GOD?!?' As difficult as this is, how can we allow achurch to exist that has no compassion for the children - societies weakest memebers? I do not see forgiveness of the perpertrators as an answer here - only execution.Besides, if those priests and the Cardinal are so damned holy, then they must know that thier God will take them to Heaven - right?

MU: There is nothing at all radical about the notion of Capital Punishment, Aura. I'm all for it, because simply put, there are people in this world that we all could do better without. These are those like you mention, and if it were left to me, I'd pull the trigger myself. Without any hesitation. At any rate, the Catholic Church, as we all know, has been rocked to its foundations with respect to this sexu scandal issue; in the Vatican chart, a very very problematic astro-sexual profile emerges. Saturn rules the 5th, is Rx and trine Neptune in the 12th of hidden sexual practices; Venus is in Taurus and trines both Saturn and Neptune (and keep in mind that Saturn is in Sag too, so "isms" and "osms" play a huge role insofar as the sexual profile is concerned). The Pluto transit of the Vatican's "vital points" isn't over yet - it still has to go over that Saturn I talked about. Ouch.

A: I mostly belong to that much maligned 'left' leaning political group. But Ibelieve in capital punishment - and how. I also see the weakness of the left and find itbeyond annoying. As one who has suffered at the hands of evil I am quite sure that itcannot be allowed to flourish - and 'all that is necessary for it to do so, is for goodmen (and women) to do nothing.'

MU: I'm glad that you're upfront about where you stand politically, and truly wish that more astrologers were as equally intellectually honest, for it's my strong view that the vast majority of the astrology community are devout Leftists, and will try to bend and justify their astrological ruminations to demonize President Bush any way they can (for example). I find this to be not only intellectually dishonest but dishonorable to astrology, too.

Your Serve.

Salaam,
Mu